Friday 25 September 2015

Invasion - What Did We Learn?

Game 5 on top 3 tables, L to R: Pete (Sgt Slaughter), 
Joe (skullsword), Dan (Zombiestate), Mike (Mega Mike)
The Invasion has now been and gone, and has left Croydon as nothing more than a smouldering crater (not that anyone could tell, or mind in fact). The battles raged long and hard for two days, culminating in the eventual crowning of a supreme general. Friendships were made, models were broken, and hugs were given out a little too freely.

You're sure to have noticed the lack of post on Monday, but I have an excuse; my brain was still a puddle of useless, pink, molten goo, which had overheated and melted after 12.5 hours of hard thinking. It was sloshing about inside my skull, so on Monday I siphoned it out, froze it back to shape  (in my handy brain shaped ice cube tray) and popped it back in. Seriously though I was shattered, and realistically we haven't had much news to rush to the PC to transcribe. Apart from the renders of UCM dropfleet frigates I have literally no exclusives to report. Which sucks. It would be fair to blame the KickStarter, and also the upcoming Reconquest Phase 2, but I'm in a petulant mood so I'll be blaming S and J Hawk (for no particular reason).

So, what do I have to write about? Well, although we didn't have any news I have an entire meta shift to discuss! You see Invasion is more than just the largest tournament on the calendar; it is an opportunity for Hawk to see how their latest units fare, and how the armies deal with the latest iteration of the rules. Invasion is a proverbial melting pot of club metas, and the information gleaned from this weekend is incredibly valuable.

To prove my point, surf down my link highway to visit the Hawk forums and view the results. PHR first, and not Shaltari?! I think we can all agree a month ago no one could have called it (apart from perhaps Leopold from Team Germany, who won the event). More so than that the highest ranking Shaltari player was in sixth! Someone has mentioned (on the forum somewhere) that perhaps the Spacehogs didn't field higher due to the lack of 'top' generals wielding them (which is a little disrespectful to the Shaltari players on the weekend to be honest), but I thought that part of the issue with Shaltari was that anyone could win with them? It's tricky to say with 100% conviction after one tournament, but perhaps the rule tweaks they have been subjected to over the last couple of months are making a noticeable difference. 

There is however a more significant change to show in placing, and that is the overall average placement of the races. Here, have a look at this spiffy table Mike whipped up:


This table reads like the script to a classic underdog movie:

"Once they were the whipping boys, the joke of the playground. But not anymore... The PHR are back, and now they mean business!" [Cyborg Uprising, coming to Cinemas 2016]

PHR players have achieved the unfathomable. They had both the highest number of players, and the highest average position. The mere fact that their lowest ranked player was 39th (out of 56) is incredible! It would be a far cry to assume that each and every PHR general has become a tactical genius overnight, and in my opinion we only have to look to their two new game changing units to explain this sudden rise to power; the Medusa and Valkyries.

The experimental units over the summer were good releases for everyone, and many labelled the Scourge as the 'winners' of the release (Eviscerators and Screamer/Raider), but the PHR definitely came out on top. Combined with the PHR's incredibly solid fire base, the Medusa offers a durable, dangerous and flexible attacking option to lead the army. Where once their troops were slow and predictable, the Valkyries can jump up to 12" between buildings, meaning speed is absolutely no longer an issue. On paper they may look good, but when you combine all of these aspects with the robust and dangerous existing units they really are game winning. It's not so much what these ladies can do on their own, but it is how they synergise with the rest of the force. If you back a Medusa up with a pair of Helios there is literally nothing they can't deal with.

It is worth noting that Hawk have plans to tweak the Medusa and she definitely needs it. Dave mentioned an upping by 10 points and a reduction to 8DP (but with 10 shots still), although I'm not convinced this is enough. When asked if the Valkyries need changing, I make this noise; "EErruurrghhhhh..." For those of you unfamiliar with it, this is the 'I'm not sure, on knee jerk reaction it feels like yes, but maybe not?!?' noise. It is probably worth noting that the chap who was 1st did not have a Medusa, but did use Valkyries.

So, where does this leave everyone else? For some factions in a weird place. It looks like Resistance fared far worse this year, but if you take into the number of extra players they did as well as I expected (most of OB had thought Resistance would win this year, we certainly didn't bank on this level of PHR dominance!). Shaltari dropped down the pecking order, and it will be interesting viewing for the future to see if the nerf hammer has hit the spiney cosmic swines too hard. Perhaps the biggest concern should be for the two starter armies though; Scourge, and in particular the UCM.

The Scourge have always been a tricky army to use and get the most out of, but I can't help but feel that things have become a whole load more difficult over summer. Unless you take a Raider and Screamer, as a Jelly you don't really have an answer to dangerous troop types (like the Medussa and Freeriders), and this can give you issues as far back as the list building stage. I found that I had to play very conservatively to squeeze the most points from my games over the weekend.

Problems seem even worse for the UCM. With only two gamers in the top 20, they have nose dived in average placement. It is hard to lay a finger on specifically what the issues are, but I have a couple of ideas. Firstly they are not really that good at anything. Scourge have their speed and CQB, Shaltari their manoeuvrability, PHR their guns, and the Resistance their toughness. The UCM are fine at all these aspects, not good, but OK. In most game systems this balances out, but I'm not so sure it does in Dropzone any more. Although they had some good units over the summer there was nothing to write home about, and I can't help but  feel perhaps the current meta is just out of their reach at the moment. My second thought is that they are (mostly) every players first army, due to the 2 player starter. I spoke to a fair few players over the weekend for which Invasion was their first ever tourney, and of course they were using UCM. DzC is very much a game where experience trumps dice, and with a whole load of new players entering the game average placement is bound to fall. Should we be worried that both armies in the 2 player starter did so badly? I'll let you make your own mind up about that one.

All in all Invasion was, as it always is, excellent. You can expect a picture dump over the weekend, but if you're impatient and hungry for the image just check out our Twitter feed (@OBDZC)!

41 comments:

  1. While I agree that the Medusa looks incredibly tough on paper (I have never seen her in action so far), I think it is worth mentioning that Leo (winner of the tournament) didn't have one in his army. Neither did he have any Valkyries, iirc.

    So it's not all down to those new units. PHR can totally hold their own without those!

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    1. Hmmm, I had included that point in my draft but it must have been deleted somehow! Agreed, Leopold was a great player and I will take nothing away from him. The discussion is more aimed at the army in general; most armies which did relatively well did field a Medusa and/or Valkyries.

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    2. Actually Lorn did have valkyries.
      I wonder how many of the PHR lists had new units, and was it that they are so new that people were unsure how to play against them?

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    3. Ah, cool, thanks! :-) Got it half right then. :-D

      Nice analysis, dertainly gives me something to think about for my PHR army build.

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    4. I think my biggest fear isnt the Medusa or Valkyries being to good, but rather simply that it will highlight issues with the Immortals. Theyve been needing something for a while now, and between Longreach teams and Valkyries its really hard to see where their place is going to be.

      Looking at the lists, it also seems like PHR players emphasized AT firepower less than they previously had, and I think that made a major difference too.

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    5. That is one of the big pitfalls that a lot of PHR players get into. There are so many fun AT toys the PHR get that it is easy to neglect other things like infantry and AA. It seems like the PHR community as a whole is finally avoiding the 'distraction' of too much AT. I've been noticing for the past 4-5 months or so PHR players going lighter on AT doing better overall (though this Invasion was really the first breakthrough as far as tournament placement goes).

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    6. Actually if you look at the winning PHR list it had a lot of AT, 7 Apollos, 2 Type 2, 1 Hades. I would not call that light on AT.

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    7. Its not light, but its also not Odinstar +2 Hades +More type 2s....

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  2. It does seem a little odd that there are already cries for nerfbatting toward the Medusa after just one tournament. Especially considering the shocking PHR win came from a player that didn't use any.

    It seems like the complaints I've been hearing are more due to the popularity of the new units, rather than whether or not they are actually too powerful. PHR players have been starved for fast, competent units for so long that once they get some, the players want them and use them. Then because most PHR players are using them (at least this first month or so since they've been out), its assumed their popularity is because they are 'too good' rather than just because they allow a playstyle the PHR have been pleading for for years.

    I guess what I'm unsure of is are the new PHR units popular because they are too good? (like the Ferrum was in its experimental stage) Or are they popular because they finally allow PHR players to build lists that aren't the standard PHR template EVERYONE was using for 18 months straight? I'm not sure yet, but I wasn't at Invasion so there is a difference in perspective too.

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    1. I feel that perhaps you misunderstood my criticism a little. The Medussa does need a toning down for sure (I played against 3, 2 in 1 list, and they are just too much for only 90pts) but I still really like what she brings the PHR. It's the same with the Valkyries, I love the unit and the dynamism they bring to the previous 'stencilled' army lists. The very fact that mostly everyone brought one or the other, or both, simply means Hawk have hit the nail on the head.

      Perhaps you're right in that they have a steep learning curve to play against. I guess only time will tell!

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    2. I think my comment was based more on what I've been hearing about the Medusa from several sources, so its likely my brain vomit was aimed in several different directions rather than just what you wrote. So you're right, it probably isn't aimed at you or OB at all.

      The news/rumors of a nerf can be a little distressing from a PHR players position though, several of my acquaintances have only recently received our new PHR units (due to various USA supply chain/distributor issues) and just as soon as they get to try them out there is talk of the nerf coming down from a tournament thousands of miles away. So from the perspective of those of us that weren't at Invasion (or aren't playing in the British/European meta), it can easily seem like its a, 'Hmm, PHR finally won a tournament... better nerf them', sort of reaction. (I know that's not what you're advocating, just illustrating a different perspective that is out there) I'd just like a little more time for the new units to play out and for everyone to adjust before any reactionary power-downs come through. At the same time, I know Hawk are under a bit of a time crunch and need to get these units more locked down before Phase 2 goes to the printers, so I get why they are looking for more rapid player input on these.

      Just addressing the idea of the nerfs (not necessarily related to this article in particular) IIRC it took months for the Ferrum and Freeriders to get adjusted, with consistent documented results of them being a bit too strong. And an even longer period of "Shaltari are working as intended" comments from Hawk before they finally got toned down. I think its fair to give the PHR longer than one weekend to see how things play out.

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    3. I agree, they do need a little time to settle in and most opinions at the moment are incredibly knee jerk. I guess in my defence I've always thought she was too cheap, and that having played against 2 in one list at Invasion was a real eye opener to just how good they are. It's all the rules which aren't immediately apparent which make you gawk; she is really good at building demo for instance, and in one game I put 14 wounds onto one over several turns and due to 2 Triton X(tremes) she didn't die! I am concerned that she will totally nulify Ares, and mostly replace Odins.

      After thinking I don't think Valks need to be changed. They are excellent, but you pay the points for that.

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    4. But you really need to take the Triton X with the Medusa to fully utilize her throughout a game, as you pointed out. That makes it 130 to take that team. Is that too little? Dunno, but I hope Hawk takes it slowly and tries one thing at a time, not a combination of nerfs as you mentioned. Going down to 8 DPs could be too much combined with a points increase. We definitely need to see more data, and it is very revealing, I think, that Lorn won without taking a Medusa. Don't know if he was trying to make a point or just thinks that you really need two or none (as he's stated twice now) and really wanted to give his Apollos some time in the sun...

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  3. I think that even more than the placement- only one in the top ten!- the fact that so many 'top players' chose not to take the shaltari out shows just how hard the nerf bat hit.

    Its getting really hard to fill out any battlegroups, everythings just so darn expensive.

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    1. Sorry Sean but of the top Shaltari players I know of, (Mike and Dan) they chose not to play shaltari because they were bored of the army. Not because of the nerfing.
      The Shaltari have needed balancing for a while but maybe Hawk went too far by a touch. I'm sure they will readjust as necessary.

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    2. Well Im glad to hear that then. Its quite possible its just me.

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    3. Hi Sean,
      As Ed said, it's not the nerfing of the Shaltari, it's the blandness of the army and the way it makes you play that I don't like. I just don't find playing Shaltari fun. I said as much after I won Feb Invasion with them. I have only used them once since then.

      I do think the Gates going up in cost was a touch too far, but the rest was ok and needed.

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  4. Thanks for the recap, I would have predicted Resistance too.

    I'm amused by the Medusa. People shout nerf, and PHR players point out Lorn won w/o one. So were the PHR ever under powered if he didn't need the new "OP" unit to win? Lorn has a history of winning the German tournaments, and only recently did Darios best him in the German tournaments. Yes, PHR were regularly winning against Shaltari, before the new units, and while everyone thought the latter was OP.

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    1. I think it just illustrates that it's the general more than the faction that makes the difference.

      Just look at the first picture of this post: Joe, Mike and Dan at the Top 3 tables, and all of them with stellar records in major events in the UK. Throw Leopold and Darios into the mix, and it seems clear to me that these are the top generals in the UK/European theatre. (And Egge came in 10th, so I'd put him in that group, too.)

      PHR were not "regularly winning against Shaltari" except in Germany, Chris. That Leopold won Invasion his first time there is a strong indication to me that it's the general more than the faction. I just hope he and the rest of Team Germany are able to make it to future Invasion events so that the Brits and the Germans and the Swedes can continue to test their mettle against each other. I just wish it weren't so bloody expensive (and require so much time needed to be there to adjust to the time zone change to be effective at a 5 game, 2 day event) to get over there so we could add a bit of American flavor to the mix...

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    2. Hi Chris,
      I think there are a couple of factors with the PHR now. First is the newness of the units. It is obviously taking people by surprise, that can be seen by the placings of ALL the PHR players at Invasion, of which most had Medusa and/or Valkyries. Players need to learn how to play against them. They are a lot easier to learn to play with than against!

      I don't advocate a knee-jerk reaction based on 1 tournament. I do, however, think that the Medusa is a touch too cheap for what she does. The Triton X and Valkyries are fine.

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  5. Nice write up. Valks made Janus and Mercurys obsolete IMO.

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    1. Janus yes, mercurys no.
      Mercurys are great support units. If I can afford them I take them everytime. that plus one for objective rolling is sooooo good.

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    2. And the long reach the mercurys can have when they conga line to an objective; )

      Rasmus

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    3. +1 to the dice roll or +1 additional dice? Slightly cheaper for Mercs + Triton, but in the days of bikes/atvs/medusa all of those pistol shots are good too.

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    4. I haven't been taking my Mercury Drones since the Valkyries came out, but I can feel the loss of their presence. I also find that Valks can and will die before the end of a game, and so I lose that forward SoI which hurts for late game Weapon Hacks and Drive Hacks. I'm going to have to go back to FFoR and try to work both of them back into my 1,500 point lists - but what, oh what, to take out?...

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  6. I disagree with most of you! But then I'm hardly a top tier player or the most experienced. ;) Feb invasion was my first ever tournament which I played using my hastily assembled PHR and came second to last. This time I came 23rd in a much larger field and racked up the second highest killpoint total of the tournament. I again brought PHR but fielded no Medusa or Valkyries. I really feel that people underestimate the longreach teams, they are a solid workhorse of a unit able to push enemy infantry off the walls, wear down Medusa sending them running for cover and pick off even heavy tanks at a steady rate.

    I had a squad of 4 Janus on the board that were a thorn in the side of several opponents to the point that some went out of their way to remove 'those annoying little things' as a threat. They are another underestimated unit and far from obsolete as nimble AA and scouts.

    There were quite a few Nemesis in use. Maybe not in the top lists but they were there and worrying opponents. I dont think that the unit is quite there yet but it is better than a lot of people give it credit for.

    Something that I felt was a bit different in this tournament was thst there were fewer players telling me that they are new to the game and unsure what they are doing. That may be because I was on higher tables but it felt like a more experienced room and that may be a factor. PHR players who were rookies before are more experienced now. Conversely UCM was much more popular this time and may be in less practiced hands. Knowing my army better helped me considerably.

    I do think the Medusa may need a few more points on her but having gone up against two without Triton-X support I found that they were both killable and didnt dominate the game. That opponent also fielded double Valkyries which I murdered with my Sirens. I think Valkyries are strong but about right, while the rules for Medusa also felt solid even if their cost is a bit out.

    The surprise to me was again that Scourge are not more popular. Their fast aggressive style feels like something that should click with more players.

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    1. I've thought about picking up Scourge a couple times, as I think I would find the playstyle fun and challenging. I just can't stand the aesthetics though, they are the only Hawk models I really don't like. Shelving units for dropships, and eyes everywhere, not my thing, and converting an entire army at that scale would be a nightmare.
      So thats just me, I wonder if that has kept others from going with Scourge as well?

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    2. I think there are a lot of players who share the same thoughts as you bud. There are some models I still don't like (the Marauder and Raider to name a couple) but I have grown to love most of the range. The looks of the army is actually what prompted my outlandish colour scheme!

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    3. Aside from the dropships I really like the Scourge bio organic alien look. I do kinda feel thst if Hawk ever start to rework the range some time from now then this is where they would start.

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    4. I played a game today vs a total noob who had chosen Scourge. He did very well, besting my PHR by 1 VP in Targets. Good game. I felt a little bad around turn 4 because I was wrecking his stuff; in the end he only had is Desolator and its 4 Minders escort, plus a couple of Invaders with Infantry that had left the table with objectives. Point being, he bought the 2-Player Starter and a plastic Scourge Starter box, added a Desolator and some Minders, Prowlers and Intruder Betas and a blister of Reavers, got them all painted up and rocked it from there.

      I know people who really dislike the Shaltari aesthetic and so will never play them. I talked to a guy tonight who likes Resistance but absolutely hates Technicals and Wagons. Go figure. Taste is what it is, if the aesthetic doesn't please you, then by all means don't force yourself to play that faction. Personally I like them all, but I'm kinda obsessing over my PHR at the moment. Took a diversion with my Resistance and rediscovered why I love them so much, but have pretty much decided that I'll be using my beloved PHR at the LVO in February, a big reason being so much of it is already painted, whereas my Resistance is relative unpainted, and there's soooo much that would need to get done for the 2,500 point event.

      So, I'm rambling, I know, but if you don't like the looks of something, that's no crime nor shame... 8^D

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  7. Invasion was a blast! To make things better, there's another 2 day tournament in reading in November, providing it doesn't get cancelled. On PHR, I do think the medusa is too cheap for the points you pay for it. I think it should be closer to 130 rather than just 90.

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    1. You really think the Medusa+Triton-X is worth more than a Ferrum?

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    2. I wonder if the answer might be to leave the Medusa alone or with only a slight change but to put most of the extra points increase on the Triton-X.

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    3. That would make the X veeeerrry expensive as a light dropship. A Triton A1 is 29 points, 11 points cheaper. Combined we pay 130 points for the Medusa+X; I could see the combo going up a few points, but I hope not so much as to price them out of contention. I think if the Medusa and the Triton X both go up in points, something else would need to come down to balance it out. Most PHR stuff is awefully expensive for the number of shots that we get per unit (Helios and Hades being the exception, but I think most would agree that they're fairly priced). A minor reduction to the Neptune and Poseidon would be a welcome trade off if the
      Medusa & X "have" to go up in points, but I think it's still too early to make any judgement, the jury is still out, IMO...

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  8. I think the medusa should be more expensive than the ferrum. While the ferrum has anti air and anti ground capability, the medusa is almost impossible to kill without flame weapons, and the damage it can do is devastating. The only weakness it has is that it's damage output goes down with the damage it takes.

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    1. The Medusa is absolutely NOT "almost impossible to kill without flame weapons". Any weight of fire attack, including Infantry shooting from buildings, will wear her down quickly to the point where you don't have to worry about finishing her off, especially if you take out her Triton X. UCM Longbows and any other template weapon, especially if you can get multiple templates on her, will wipe her out in one volley.

      It's pointless to take a Medusa without the Triton X, IMO, or at least one out of two must have an X to keep her in the game, and that puts her and her ride at 130 points, which is pricey, but I agree with Mike that she could go up a smudge, but the X is fine where it is now...

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    2. I agree, Infantry to the walls or even MG/Gatling fire can remove some essential DP from her. Also the Medusa needs to get pretty close, exposing her in the process and likely distance her from the rest of the army. Exactly what I did to handle 2 two times.

      The only army I see having some problems with her are Scourge and that is if you do not bring a Raider. In general units which save points for not having active countermeasures are a bit of a mismatch against Scourge as they cannot use it to their advantage in most cases.

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  10. One tournament, even if it is a major DZC event, is not enough time to assess new units. Saying that, I'd pay 10 points more for a Medusa. It's not comparable to Ferrum launched drone waves with such amazing speed, scout, AT and AA.

    I'm personally very happy with the recent tweaks to the game and see the outcomes from this event as a sign the game is in a very good place.

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    1. Yeah I agree,I think it is also the reason we haven't seen any changes yet either. Hawk (unlike the community) don't tend to knee-jerk either.
      Once players get used to seeing the new units it should even out a touch. Medusa still needs a points upping though

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