"No way, we actually get to shoot some troops this game? Yeehah!" |
“A sudden change in
the winds of DzC is causing mechanics to clash against one another,
creating an unsuspecting spark. This spark is buffeted around in the
gales of meta and catches something, an unsuspecting gamer, which
lights an ember within him. Slowly but surely this ember burns
brighter and brighter, and becomes an inferno within the vessel!”
This is how a bard may
have spun the tale of flame weapons becoming a little more useful,
and myself deciding to give them a go (pre-FAQ I will add). Although these days we would just probably write something like;
“Flame weapons? Eh,
they're alright, I'll give 'em a go, although I don't expect anything
special mind you.”
This is all a bit vague
and wordy, so let me actually explain what the hell I'm
talking about. After Invasion I decided to give generally unloved
units in the Scourge army a little more attention, with the aim of
finding possible undiscovered uses for them and also for fun. I have always been a little sceptical of flame units in general, so decided to use this opportunity to use some Tormentors, and critique both them and how flame units stand in the current meta at the same time.
The
unit itself is a bit of a beast for a flame tank. It has more DP and
a bucket load more shots than any other flame unit out there. It is
also not slow, and then on top of all this it can carry specialised
CQB troops! In my opinion, it is the best flame unit in the game
(even before the points decrease) as it burns which ever infantry it
targets, which is ultimately what you want from this type of tank.
With the flame units of the other races you find yourself needing to
focus more than one on a base to guarantee the job being done, and if
you lose a single model it can greatly decrease the effectiveness of the
squad. The Tormentor being A8 isn't really even an issue either, as it
will normally be hiding behind buildings, away from AT shots.
So
establishing that the Tormentor is top of its class, why don't we see
more on the battlefield? It's a depressingly obvious reason sadly, in
that it is because it is a flame unit. Flame weapons are the most
specific in the game, so specific in fact that in certain missions
they are a complete waste of time. Even AA can shoot ground units, as
you have good odds on taking out tanks like the Janus and Prowler .
Flame weapons don't offer this kind of flexibility in a list, which
is a hard pill to swallow once you invest more than a 100 points in a
squad.
I
have played four games with them now (all 1500 points), one post-FAQ,
and here is a small run down of each game:
Encroachment
– Vs PHR (win)
This
should have been 'the'
mission for a flame unit. Troops worth triple points inside buildings
in your opponents board half? I just wait for the Sirens to hop out,
and squirt my dangerous jelly all over the copper haired princesses!
One small problem did occur however, in which I left them too close to a
building, and it fell on them killing both models. This game was
fairly moot due to my own stupidity, so lets move on.
Military
Complex – Vs PHR (win)
This
was against Sgt Slaughter, and he had taken an Athena which happened
to turn up on the first turn; as such, I was a little cautious with
everything in the air! This being a game of objectives, I parked my
Tormentors behind the middle building ready to pounce on any infantry
units that deployed into one of the three central buildings.
However... The Sgt didn't deploy any Infantry into the middle
buildings for the first four turns. I'm not sure why to be honest.
This may have been the influence of the flame units in the middle of
the park, but when I asked him after the game if this was the case,
he merely moaned that 'We've got no speed!'. As you can guess this
wasn't very helpful in my quest to discover if the flame unit was
viable, but there you go.
In
my opinion I think they did have a psychological impact on the game.
Jumping into a building only to lose an entire squad of troops (dice
depending of course) is a daunting risk. He didn't have the speed to
get onto my side of the building and deal with them either, so unless
I activated badly I was always going to toast something. This gave me
a big edge on a objective only mission, but having said this I never
once got to shoot them in anger, which was disappointing. Who
realistically wants to play with a unit that you never get to roll
dice for!
I
learned a very useful trick with Razorworms in this game. Razorworms
cannot search for objectives, but they can still be the occupier. As
such, I shunted them into a building that two squads of Immortals
were heading to on turn five. Come turn six I was the occupier, and
because of this the Immortals could not search for the objective.
Yes, they turned them into worm skin rugs in CQB, but it didn't
matter- the objective was safe. Sneaky Scourge Shenanigans.
Secure
The Flanks – Vs UCM (win)
I
finally got a chance to use them in this game! My adversary had a
couple of Legionnaire squads
You get to roll THIS many dice with Tormentors! |
In
this particular set up they were very useful, and allowed me to
consolidate my win. All they did all game was take out some cheap
Legionnaires but it was an important task to complete. It is probably
worth noting that one squad of Destroyers decimated the other squad
of Legionnaires (who were lining the walls) with their shard cannons.
Twelve shots on each base will do that! This means that an all round
infantry unit caused equal damage to a specialised flame unit. Yes,
the infantry had to be lining the walls, but still it is food for
thought.
I
will credit where it is due however- when I did get to pick up and
roll twenty dice it felt SO good!
Take
And Extract – Vs Resistance (loss)
Another
disaster unfortunately. I fudged my activations in turn two, and
Skulsword deployed three Gun Wagons, shot the Tormentors Marauder and
killed everything in the ensuing explosion. I really hate that spawny
bugger sometimes. Not really a fair run out, but in order to make use
of them I had to rocket forward resulting in leaving myself
vulnerable. As it turned out I could have really used them, as
Occupation Veterans in a large building are a total nuisance!
To
summarize, every time I use this unit I feel like I am wasting my
points. They were helpful in two games (granted I screwed up in one
of the other two) but I think I could have won both without them. 150
points could get me eight Prowlers, two Slayers, or even a third unit
of Destroyers (hypothetically of course, three would probably be
overkill!). Each of those units would have been more useful in three
of the four games played, and Tormentors were only more useful in
Secure the Flanks because of a very opportunistic twist that went my
way. Certainly in my loss against Skullword I would rather have had
eight Prowlers; I'm confident I could have at least drawn the game
using them through multiple high energy attacks on his Alexander, and
unit saturation to distract from my Hunters.
Closing in to administer the jelly flood |
There
are currently cheap flame units that you will see get a run out due
to low cost or numerical nuances. Fire Wagons for instance are very
cheap at 92 points with a Kraken, and you have the option of taking
one or two Menchits with larger standard battlegroup in a Poseidon.
Each of these units is a small points sink, and may be worth a try.
Units like the Tormentor and Fireblade however are pricey and will
limit what else you can take in an army, and ultimately are not worth
it. To put this into perspective eight Prowlers with Intruders are
only 120 points, and two Longbows and Ravens are a mere 90!
In
a game of adaptability flame units remain to specific for me. They
sit in a very awkward place, being very good at certain missions and
utterly useless in others. Every other unit in the game can do more
than one thing- For example, AA can also shoot infantry and AT can shoot
buildings at long range. Flame as a rule doesn't offer the same
utility, and even with the rules now ignoring Evasive counter measures it is
a cost in an army which many will not be willing to pay, and for a
good reason too.
In
order for myself to consider using a flame unit it would have to be
more multi-purpose. Something like a small AT gun, E9 maybe or
something similar, would be a good start. Or even perhaps a unit
which offers a local buff (like the Dreamsnare, but less douchey) and
packs a flame weapon to go with it. The unit would suddenly have more
purpose than simply waiting about for Infantry to perhaps expose
themselves.
Finally
to conclude, do I think the flame tank is a viable, take on all
comers unit? No, absolutely not with the current units in the game.
If you know which mission you will be playing though, they can be
very useful indeed.
I'd
love to hear your thoughts and experiences with flame units, and
perhaps get a discussion going as to how we think they could become
useful!
Agree on all points, maybe in large games they might work better were 150pt ish is not so important.
ReplyDeleteI don't own any for any of my armies.
FM
It's worth grabbing a squad in case you play a 2k+ game, because they become worth it then. It's at less than that, that they suffer sadly.
DeleteI agree on all points. And would suggest that flame units need to be cheaper in points for most armies because of their single specific roll. The expectations : A. being for PHR as you can mix your type one walker squads so only have to take one in with your larger numbers of more useful AA and AT walkers. And B. Resistance given the internal balance of the army (being an infantry dependent army without OP infantry) fire wagons are a force multiplier and because they can disembark and shoot from the hovercrafts.
ReplyDeleteI play alot of Scourge and my poor UCM infantry have a hell of a time with destroyers. No one takes less than 2 squads. And why wouldn’t they are awesome almost an auto include. Not even Praetorians can deal with these monsters. Indeed, I had 6 legionaries and a unit of Praetorians trying to dislodge 2 bases of Destroyers and they could not do it in 2 turns of CQB.
As the situation where dropping the building is not an option or would cost too much shooting, keeps coming up again and again. I am thinking of getting some fire blades when I can next afford it.
I agree I would never take them in an all comers list – ever! 3 fireblades and a condor are more expensive than a squad of praetorians in a Raven by 3pts. WHY!!!???!!!
But the fact that you can’t keep a unit of destroyers out of a building by manning the walls mean I am going to get them. I only want them for dealing with Destroyers.
Now the game seems to have the following thought process in mind for most casual games: “Know the mission and make a list.” At least this is the impression I would get reading the rule book and not reading on the internet. It would seem that the original intention and rules design is that casual games would be the bulk of play worldwide not tournament and tournament prep. If this is the case than flame weapons do have a useful and valuable place (I know Im playing scourge and it is not one of the few missions were infantry is not as important I better get me some fireblades). If not then they need a bit of a shift to reflect that people play all comers list more often than tailoring a list to an individual game/mission.
The question is:
Are ‘all comers lists’ the norm? Or are we misreading the place of flame weapons because Dav’s vision of now most games are played are not generic list games and we just have to work with the fact that all comers lists are not going to work with flame tanks (but thats OK because these types of games are an outlier overall)?
H.
P.S. love the pod cast. I get so much more painting done when you guys put one out.
Hi hold pattern, great comment. I think there are different ways to deal with Destroyers. The best way is to strand them by taking out their dropship. Arcangels help with this, also star sprite drones.
DeleteFireblades are not the answer to Destroyer problems. 12 shots will hit 8 times, so you are looking at 2-3 wounds, then the destroyers get their passive save!! You could get lucky and take out a base, then again your opponent could and he could save everything.
Maybe concentrate on the Warriors more, use sacrificial squads to hold up the destroyers.
Sacrifical squads are good to keep the Destroyers away. With only 18 attacks for two bases enemy units have a tendency to stay in the fight for a turn extra. So against other exotics they don't clear buildings as fast.
Delete/Egge
When I play UCM and have to take out Destroyers/1stborn/Sirens, I've found you need 2 base of Praetorian and 6 bases of legionnaires + some cards. Then I win the CQB with 1 partial base of Praetorian and 1.5 bases of legionaries. Not too economical.
ReplyDeleteFM
Destroyers are hardy. Im glad to hear that it is not simply that I am a dice gimp. I like that scourge have their ‘CQB awesome’ feel. I was just hopeful of a use for the fireblade. Sure you can burn out regular infantry but who whats that when you can have fast roping SAS.
ReplyDeleteDowning light dropships has been the normal way to deal with them. Was thinking flame tanks might give me a way of dealing with them head on for those times when you just have to get them out of a building quickly. Looking at Mikes the numbers the fire blades don’t seem appealing. You just saved me some money! This is a good thing – one decision closer to a Phoenix.
You bet me to it! I will try the following list at GothCon sweden for a one day event. We will see what happens. Nedless to say I am doubtful. At the same time I really really look forward playing this type of list. It will be great fun ant very challenging.
ReplyDeleteStandard Army
Clash: 1489/1500 points
Standard Army
Standard Roster [1489/1500 pts]
Oppressors [372 pts]
Desolator: Desolator(Overlord) [260 pts]
Minders: 4x Minder, Intruder Beta [56 pts]
Minders: 4x Minder, Intruder Beta [56 pts]
Vanguard [304 pts]
Hunter Squad: 3x Hunter, Marauder [146 pts]
Reaper Squad: 3x Reaper, Marauder [158 pts]
Warriors [237 pts]
Warrior Horde: 3x Warriors, Marauder, 2x Invader [156 pts]
^ Sharing ^ Warrior Horde: 3x Warriors [81 pts]
Warriors [124 pts]
Aged Ones: 2x Aged Ones, Intruder Alpha [124 pts]
Invasion Host [332 pts]
Slayer Squad: 2x Slayer(+Razorworms), Marauder [191 pts]
Tormentor Squad: 2x Tormentor, Marauder [141 pts]
Attack Swarm [120 pts]
Corsairs: Corsair [60 pts]
Corsairs: Corsair [60 pts]
/Egge
You should do alright fella, you're a good player and in dropzone experience speaks volumes. Having said that your list isn't really optimised, but I gather that's the point! You need more troops for sure; aged ones are useless. Puting them against exotics is great for a one turn boost, but they get horribly murdered In return...
ReplyDelete